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Realsoft Forum • View topic - Version 6 thread

Version 6 thread

Realsoft 3D Discussion forum moderated by Vesa Meskanen, Realsoft OY

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Version 6 thread

Postby Boris » Wednesday 24. August 2005, 20:01

SP2 will be out quite soon and it's time to tell what you'd like to see in version 6.
This discussion started in the german speaking forum but I think this should be discussed by all and we should collect all features and fixes we like to see in Version 6.
At some point I'll start a voting for all of the ideas which were posted in this thread.
I hope there'll be lots of input.
Bye
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RE: Version 6 thread

Postby ohahnel » Wednesday 24. August 2005, 20:44

hi all!

mine wishes for v6 the followings were:

1. active representation of the balance during the modelns updated continuously
2. immediate representation of the respective edits coordinate system for all objects (that is without an additional calling of the property windows)
3. please! improve opengl representation (since Microsoft opengl won't support any more)
4. improve 3d painting: cause to have to bring colors, textures and surface details on the object to modeln. this will luxulogy introduce it in its new version"modo 201"
5. a complete description of the possibilities the vsl - programming.

bye oLi
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RE: Version 6 thread

Postby Robert » Wednesday 24. August 2005, 20:56

Hello,
the first at that i think is, it would be nice when you can extrude a SDS-face along a path.

A symmetric modelling tool :)

And a tool where you can comb hair.

That's my wishes
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Postby Timo » Wednesday 24. August 2005, 21:57

  • proper nurbs tools (think rhino)
  • extended poly tools (check silo, modo or polyboost)
    • I'd especially like it if selected faces were highlighted (like in modo), not just the edges
    • a way to make backfaces/edges/points unselectable
  • proper shadow mapping
  • proper sample distribution for special lights (f.e. an analytical sphere is 'brighter' at the poles)
  • openexr support
  • Collada import/export
  • file format selection for UVImage (and caustics)
  • fixed nurbs curve raytracing (transparency looks awful)
  • qt or fltk based ui for *nix (or all platforms)
  • proper colorpicker for *nix
  • angle for distant light (f.e. 0.5 degrees for sun, could also be used as a sky dome)
  • raytracer VSL object that only evaluates distance (or only evaluates what is used ?)
  • multiselection, undo and drop to level for VSL
  • better OGL rendering
    • shadows
    • transparency
  • sample based post effects (so that they'd work with AA)
  • sample materials that replicate default stuff like surface- and volume illumination
  • faster rendering :D
  • auto rename (edit & select text) when creating channels/variables/whatever
  • RT/WF invisible buttons when multiple objects are selected


I'll edit this post if I can think of something else.
Last edited by Timo on Thursday 15. September 2005, 20:35, edited 8 times in total.
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Postby VRgrafix » Wednesday 24. August 2005, 22:17

Lighting, Lighting and better Lighting. GI just does not cut it in the world of CGI now, I want to put in a "sun" object and get realistic bounce light and soft real world shadows. I want to put in a light bulb and say its 60w and get realistic falloff and colour. Real world examples, real world objects.

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Postby Milkdrop » Thursday 25. August 2005, 00:16

Better Opengl

Better character tools

What Vrgrafix said about lighting etc

One thing which i found was a huge problem was the uv tool. When you wnted to unwrap a mesh it did it in such a funny way. You firstyl had to associate what type of mapping say cube etc the object would be best suited too and then you would give the object its mapping and apply the map to object function. The uv maps some times were really bad. I would like to be able to place a seam on a mesh so the uv texture tool would use this seam to unwrap the mesh.

That is probably about it.
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Postby nkertes » Thursday 25. August 2005, 05:01

Node based scripting will be fine :-)

Nandor Kertes
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Postby VRgrafix » Thursday 25. August 2005, 08:12

I'd also like to see the network rendering nodes revisited. I've harped on for years now about how I'd like a "better" one, primarilly with frame based rendering, but I can see RS has had problems implementing this.
What I would really like is a render node server that accepts tasks from any RS on the network. eg: Run server - it automatically picks up all the render slaves active on local network. In RS - open a project you would like to render, then say "add to que". It sends "package" of project to the render server, it adds it to the que and distributes it amongst the available slaves. (Note the distinction between adding to que and saving project like we must do now) You can then keep adding views / projects to the render que and it just keeps accepting tasks. Basically the render farm does nothing but render.
The difference to what we have now is one must save each project then manually add to the rendering one at a time. This should be done automatically, similar to 3ds max for example that has had such a server for years. I can live without frame based rendering (Although in my experience this is much faster - ie each slave renders a single image) but I think the ability to function as a render slave network is imperative.

Bernie
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Postby Karl » Thursday 25. August 2005, 19:13

Oh my God, here we go again :) I fear that my list of wishes for new tools and changes to the existing ones will be long and painful. I will try to limit myself, but no promises :D I tend to be using 3ds max more and Realsoft3D less these days. Although I find max's interface quite messy and hard to get used to, it usually does the job easier and with the way the tools were intended to work. In Realsoft3D nearly everything has a "workaround" attached to get it done, and it's just too hard to memorize them all. Some of the points will be a comparison between max and RS3D. But anyway, here are some of my points:

1. I still like the concept of analytical models, but they have too few options, and there are too few to choose from. I.e. I would like to round the egde of a cube but then I would manually have to remake it as a polyhedron and add a 90° swept cylinder at the corner. This process should be simplified. The torus is still missing, wich would be nice to have to add a bevel on a cylinder end. Whatever happened to regular polyhedrons, which are a nice subpart of mechanical nuts. Mixing analyticals with nurbs or sds version is a no go (yes, even with excact turned on, more on this one later).

2. Better organized and cross-checked tools. This is often driving me nuts. I have a certain workflow established, and I find it crazy that I have to look for a tool in another place (i.e. in the select popup) instead of where I usually look (i.e. the menu). Examples:
a) Rotator and Tube tools can only be found in the select windows popup.
b) Selecting move tool from the toolbar provides different options compared to the move tool available from the e-compass or the 'm' key (the deformation options are missing).
c) In the uv-editor, all of my compass key modifiers seems to be broken, meaning that only the default compass is available and the edit/object mode compass is available.

3. UV-editor: Add the possibility to disconnect faces. Maybe I have this inset in a wall and want to map a painting which is part of the map onto that face. In general, just check out how the 3ds max uv-editor works, I think it has a lot more power.

4. In the VSL editor, organize the list of available objects better, i.e. vertically and alphabetical. I spend quite a long time to find the one I'm looking for, and I do consider myself pretty familiar with the box. I was bored silly so I made a small picture showing what should be changed. See the image, and note the changes:
a) A common bitmap is used for all bitmap like operations: Colormapping, Bumpmapping, Shadowmapping, and hopefully a new Enviromentmapping, where the modeswitch provides the different possibilities.
b) "Shader" is replaced with "ShaderTree", just to differenciate it better from the next item.
c) Specular should be replaced with a new one called "Shading". This new shading operator should have "modes", similar to the Bitmap operator above. Modes should be Diffuse and Specular. The diffuse can have toggles such as Matte, Oren-Nayar with slider (0=Lambert=default), and Custom Curve (also with backside curve support). Specular should have toggles such as Traditional, Curve, Blinn. All of which have anisotropic stretch and orientation control if enabled. The reason of not using the previous (and tedious) way of doing i.e. Oren-Nayar, is that you cannot route it to the material as a true Diffuse shader, i.e. Diffuse Only lights does not recognize that Oren Nayar result is a diffuse value. In fact, the diffuse shading part should actually be available as a builtin channel. Same goes for specular. This would ease up "render elements" quite a lot.

5. Still on VSL, all parameters (at least non-integer ones) in all objects should allow custom control, such as input from a curve. I.e. the specular anisotropic orientation could be given a calculated value so that is stretches towards lightsources instead of using a material brushing direction. Or control the Octave Ratio of a noise operator with a Cell operator. The possibilities would be endless.

6. Today you have to assign values to a custom channel for lightsources through a material using the light shader. It should be possible to assign this within the object properties for the lightsource. This would surely ease the task of creating lightsource exclusion or inclusion lists.

7. Scrolling through the material names in a VSL editor, jumps back to the topmost material. Fix it!

8. A new parameter in VSL, simply called Optical IOR that automatically does the 1/(1-IOR) conversion. I suppose people used with other rendering software will have a hard time getting used to Realsoft's implementation, even though it is somewhat hidden in the manual.

9. A new operator, or curve switch, that does correct Fresnel calculations based on the materials IOR.

10. Proper UV coordinates baked into all objects by default, even though modifications through mapping or UV-sets are needed in the end. Get rid of the "Mapping Coordinates" in VSL and stick to one system only; UVW-maps. Mapping a plane with a parallel map should generate a UVW-map on a selected channel, not "Map coords". I'm talking about the same "generate UV-coords" that Max can generate for it's objects.

11. Change the Disk Map to work as a Cone Map if a height is given, which allows projection variations along the Z-axis.

12. The VSL noise operator currently has a "4D Input" switch. This switch should be replaced by two new switches; "4D Input" or "4D as Tile". Having noise as 4D allows repeatability without the use of mirroring. This is superb for using noise even in a diskmap projection without problems (circular grooves).

13. Better filtering options in general. I.e. although using noise in a diskmap as mentioned above works great, it does tend to produce unwanted star-shaped moire patterns when used as bumps. Supersampling doesn't even do too much good here, so I don't know what to suggest :) 3DS Max has a massive collection of filters to choose from when such problems arise.

14. The raytracer object should have recursion based ray amount built into it. I.e. 64 rays at first recursion, 16 in second, and just 4 in third and more. Just give us some controls, but remember to take number of light samples into account (area lights).

15. Drag & Drop support from the operating system, with a popup where you can choose the appropriate action. I.e. drag and drop a material, you choose to "Replace Selected" or "Add New".

16. A much more intuituve particle animation system. I played around with the schematic Particleflow in Max for a couple of hours, and I already feel "in place". I've been struggeling for a long time in RS3D with a similar setup, and have yet to even come close.

More to come :)

Edit: Forgot to add the picture, so here goes...
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Postby Matthias » Thursday 25. August 2005, 19:34

Some of my wishes:
A full manual (with a full scripting language word list)
A tab where in a table all points are per face listed with multiseletion option and simple text im- and export (like csv-data)
A info tab, for implementing hints in tutorials
The pixel tool from V3
The lathe tool from V3
The other missing tools from V3
Higher ray recursion depth option ( rrd > 20 )
more exact simulation
uuups, and this one:
a button for "I'm doing now exactly, what your thinking about"
(Dschinny button :-) )
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Postby juhamaza » Thursday 25. August 2005, 20:30

1. Radiosity rendering.
2. N-Gons Modelling:
http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d ... ren_e.html
3. Better Caustics rendering
4. Baker and the Normal Maps
http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d ... tor_e.html + http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d ... ker_e.html
5. Great and simple HDRI material tools (or tutorial). :)
6. Motion Capture from video.
7. Audio tools [you can add some sounds to animation line mixer (help when you animating something)].
8. http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/in ... id=5659513 There is lots of "ideas".. :) (example: Expose Transform, skinmorph,
New Adaptive Tessellation in radiosity, Edit_Poly.)
9. http://www.alias.com/eng/products-servi ... ndex.shtml (and there is more ideas)
10. Particle Metaballs (+some kind of water simulating just like )
11. Water, cloth, hair, fur, grass, snow, smoke, explosion, fire, cloud, sky and all kind of different -simulating tools,
http://www.nextlimit.com/realflow/index.html (water simulation). :)
12. Some Poly "Painting" modelling tools.
13. Better UV-editing tools.
And better displacement material: With Y, X and Z leves. (you can create example human from cube with only displacement material.
+Animated displacement material.

There was my quick list.
Last edited by juhamaza on Thursday 25. August 2005, 20:37, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby fre_ber » Thursday 25. August 2005, 20:33

Complete documentation including usage examples for every class and method of the SDK.
"He who re-invents the wheel, understands much better how a wheel works."
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Image Formats

Postby Matthias » Thursday 25. August 2005, 21:06

More image output formats:

RLA / RPF for compositing
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Version 6 thread

Postby onyx » Friday 26. August 2005, 05:03

The most important:

1. faster work with complicated projects (RS slows down extremely with bigger files)
2. rendering upgrades: faster- specially soft shadows rend. (without post effects) and GI rend., simple multipass rendering with PSD output (with shadow and lights passes like in Cinema4D), simple HDRI as light map rend.
3. better OGL in viewports (witout artifacts in booleans)
4. better UV-mapping tools (something like Wings3D or Blender)
5. better lighting (everything what Bernie said)
6. support for .fbx - Motionbuilder standard
7. interactive edge loop finding tool (Cinema4D)


The rest:

1. VSL / materials editing - I'm not sure, how it could be implemented in whole VSL system but it should be more understandable for new user who isn't a coder - VSL in simple mode shoud have better interface - with simple access to advanced features - less mathematics and better preview.
2. as Timo said: "I'd especially like it if selected faces were highlighted (like in modo), not just the edges"
3. printed manual in standard or optimized for print PDF
4. 3D painting tool upgrade
5. particles upgrade
6. better Selection Painter - selecting only visible faces
7. in startup options place "Hide Coordinates Handle in edit mode" and "Hide Rotate Handle in edit mode" checkbox for disable by default for SDS objects
8. the subdivide tool in V4.2 was working in different way - face was subdivided in it's center - sometimes it was very useful - maybe there should be an option for subdiv in such a way.
9. maybe a bit interactive tools (like ni Cinema4D or XSI) - after placeing for example a cube into a scene we can control a number of subdivisions with a slider - and the objects changes in viewport.


And one more thing - not exactly for V6 - I'm asking for better support from RS Team here, on Forum. It's the only one RS forum - Mailing List is really active but the truth is, that board like this one are much more popular in CG internet world - Users should know that software developer is aware of theitr problems - posting once for a couple of months as a "Guest" is a bit weird for me....
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RE: Version 6 thread

Postby JuhaS » Friday 26. August 2005, 19:23

1. Isoline opengl display & edit of SDS surfaces & the stuff said earlier about backface/edge/vertex selection.
2. LSCM (Least Squares Conformal Map) UV unwrapping:
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=946918
(Like in Blender and Modo, I guess.)
or, something similar to 3ds max 8:s new 'pelt mapping' feature, it looks like some sort of weighted uv relaxing of sorts.
3. Interactive symmetry tool.
4. 'Slide' tool for SDS meshes: to be able to move and scale new vertices, edges, faces over existing topology. Like surface input for sds meshes or something.
5. Like said before, better NURBS tools.
6. Proper soft-selection.
7. The 3d-painting stuff with tablet support. :P
Last edited by JuhaS on Monday 12. September 2005, 08:58, edited 1 time in total.
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